Fellowship of the Link

• a [[meeting]].
  • #go https://meet.jit.si/fellowship-of-the-link
  • #calendar https://plex.collectivesensecommons.org/calendar/
  • #when Wednesdays at [[6PM UTC]]
• Attending: [[x]], [[y]]
• Start recording, we’re currently using Jitsi and that works best with a [[Chromium]] based browser.
• Threads from last time we would like to pick up:
  • [[high leverage opportunities]] we can spot
  • [[generative commons]]
    • [[generative linking]] (inferring links)
    • [[general commons agreement]] https://bra.in/8qeNWy
  • [[wishlist]] approach to worldbuilding
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] let’s discuss: note sharing.
    • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] let’s discuss conventions? Added something in [[massive wiki]].
      • volunteered https://tftmap.massive.wiki/map/aram_zucker-scharff pull
  • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] would like to generalize the archiving tool / link card generator he’s been working on.
  • [[Flancian]] would like to discuss [[Interwiki]] links and the [[common hub]] approach for search and entity resolution
  • [[SJ]] wants to discuss / address this at hacking days at Wikimania in August (you’re all invited to Singapore ;) https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2023:Wikimania pull
• #push [[fotl threads]]
  • define:
    • [[wiki]] / root URL
    • /now
    • [[issue tracker]] / [[project tracker]] URL
      • [[github]] by default?

[[2024-05-15]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Samuel Klein]] [[Flancian]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
• On [[Google I/O]] and [[OpenAI]]‘s presentation
  • The [[Her]] factor of marketing
  • On compentition and incentives
  • The dystopia is the point https://www.bloodinthemachine.com/p/for-tech-ceos-the-dystopia-is-the?utm_source=pocket_saves
• On [[wealth redistribution]] and giving back to creators
  • Nice it if happened, but will it? It didn’t happen in earlier/non-AI stages of aggregations
  • If you want the sources of information to stick around in the long term, you should give back to them?
  • They keep saying profit sharing but it never happens
  • [[Palo Alto]] by [[Malcolm Harris]]: https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/malcolm-harris/palo-alto/9780316592031/
• #AZS
  • [[breakthrough technology]] vs [[breakdown technology]]
  • https://www.bloodinthemachine.com/p/for-tech-ceos-the-dystopia-is-the?utm_source=pocket_saves
• on [[maximizing shareholder value]]:
  • https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2024/05/google-io-gemini-learnlm/678379/
  • https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/harold-meyerson-the-myth-of-maximizing-shareholder-value/2014/02/11/00cdfb14-9336-11e3-84e1-27626c5ef5fb_story.html
  • SJ says:none of it is a function of law
  • SJ says:it’s all social norms
  • Good book on this: "The Man Who Broke Capitalism: How Jack Welch Gutted the Heartland and Crushed the Soul of Corporate America―and How to Undo His Legacy"
  • WIAB https://incubator.apache.org/projects/wave.html
  • Jerry: What is the phenomenon where the norms that got a company or country to where they are get thrown out?
  • Aram: That phenomenon is Shifting Baselines https://aramzs.xyz/glossary/shifting-baselines/
  • Links collected on the open source crisis https://context.center/topics/maintaining-open-source/
  • Scatter, Adapt, and Remember: How Humans Will Survive a Mass Extinction, Annalee Newitz
• Google Books
  • A google utopian project?
  • Q: why didn’t Google join efforts with the [[Internet Archive]] then?
  • [[SJ]] on the history
  • Good article - https://www.wired.com/2017/04/how-google-book-search-got-lost/
  • [[SJ]] lots of companies spend their $ on user or society surplus. on average, most companies don’t survive. the itnersection of those that invest in public surplus and those survive decreases over time… if you weather a downturn you probably cut out most areas of surplus. and it’s rare that it comes back
  • SJ says:but coops are also companies and often defined in terms of helping one another survive downturns. let’s design future orgs and systems from good models
  • https://context.center/topics/maintaining-open-source/
  • https://aramzs.xyz/glossary/shifting-baselines/
• The Long Next
  • [[SJ]] we don’t need to ‘fix capitalism’
  • SJ says:most of society still runs on other isms
  • me says:+1, we want to upgrade existing systems and build more and better bridges between them
  • /now and ending urls with /json and /md to get JSON and MD versions of the data respectively. Standard data sharing flows.
  • Webfinger
  • Webmention
  • ActivityPub
  • https://github.com/jhass/nodeinfo
    • https://codeberg.org/thefederationinfo/nodeinfo_metadata_survey
• Ideas for shared projects
  • Frame the fellowship as a community of practice, use knowledge tools together and showcase/present the results
  • Organize classes in digital knowledge tools
  • Take all our notes and artifacts and feed them to an LLM
  • Run a semilink (seminar) series
    • One link 15m session - 3m, about link, 5m about discussion, then a wrapup. Embed the link in the full history of its context.
• Let’s come back next week with ideas in any form you want and present
  • We’ll call it [[semilink]] as per Samuel’s
  • everyone has to bring one half-baked link and one potential person to include 😉

[[2024-05-01]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Flancian]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
• [[Check ins]]
  • [[Chris Aldrich]] — just back from constructive protests :)
    • #JM On polarization vs support of ‘sides’
      • #PK And proponents of a cause vs destabilizers
      • #PK "’Outside agitators’ descended on Columbia campus to radicalize students: Eric Adams" https://nypost.com/2024/05/01/us-news/hundreds-of-protesters-arrested-at-columbia-as-anti-israel-group-calls-for-support/
      • #AZS The NYPD said they couldn’t find any actual non-students
      • #AZS NYPD walked back some earlier statements
    • #CA This was an interesting take about campus protests recently: The only thing university administrators had to do was NOTHING. by [[Dave Karpf]]
    • #AZS on the issue of double-standards. Some students are disruptive on campus, pretty much always — but response is sometimes disproportionate.
    • #F about university autonomy
      • Same rules than elsewhere, but in this case the administration invited the police in.
    • #AZS https://twitter.com/BFriedmanDC/status/1785683633270829403 pull https://twitter.com/MattBinder/status/1785682880963780785 pull https://twitter.com/outlivethemnyc/status/1785508769859875219 pull
    • This vs 1968
    • https://www.insidehighered.com/news/governance/executive-leadership/2024/04/29/presidents-grapple-how-respond-student-protesters
    • #CA the students are relatively better informed on most of these issues than the average citizen (but they will have to fight prejudices?)
    • #JM what should we do about this?
      • Tolerate protest
      • Telling people to protest differently is usually not productive
      • Dis-investment movement will probably not work
      • Respond with facts — carry a factsheet, #AZS did this in campus years :)
    • #F naive position / on campus as safe debate spaces ideally
    • #AZS Collection of campus protest links: https://aramzs.xyz/topic/academia/
    • Israel vs Palestine as one of the hardest issues to debate due to the difficulty of reaching ‘ground truth’.
    • On deescalation not being a function that the police force has historically, even though it was the right function here.
    • On the boundaries between hate speech and free speech
    • #JM https://dangerousspeech.org/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Benesch pull
    • #CA [[schrodinger’s douchebag]]: One who makes douchebag statements, particularly sexist, racist or otherwise bigoted ones, then decides whether they were “just joking” or dead serious based on whether other people in the group approve or not. (via https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=schrodinger%E2%80%99s%20douchebag )
• Check ins
  • Flancian: what did I miss in the last few sessions? :)
    • New potential member!
    • [[founders letter]] and [[open letter]] idea
    • two questions ;)
      • do companies have no real encoded principles other than making more money? :(
        • maybe the founders were well meaning but they were naive millionaires
      • is this a good idea or a bad one?
        • https://www.wheresyoured.at/the-men-who-killed-google/
  • Jerry: will [[generative AI]] survive capitalism?
    • Peter: and vice-versa :)
    • On the issue of bait-and-switch
    • Is capitalism strictly evil or not?
      • Devil’s advocate: capitalism is not necessarily toxic, but we have ended up with the cancerous kind
      • Variants of Capitalism: https://bra.in/5vmPJj
    • #PK you need to ‘hack culture’ to codify the values that would actually counteract the constant pressure to make money
    • #AZS on what levers can realistically effect change in a large corporation
    • #PK frame it as a cautionary tale: don’t let what happened to Google happen to your company
    • On open source:
      https://www.computerworld.com/article/2074112/software-vendors-dump-open-source-go-for-the-cash-grab.html https://www.technologyreview.com/2023/08/17/1077498/future-open-source/ https://thenewstack.io/open-source-needs-maintainers-but-how-can-they-get-paid/
• On Google revolts:
  • https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/apr/27/google-project-nimbus-israel
  • “It’s difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on not understanding it." -Upton Sinclair
  • https://www.seattletimes.com/business/google-employee-who-played-key-role-in-protest-of-contract-with-israel-quits/
  • https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/02/18/magazine/google-revolt.html

[[2024-04-03]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Flancian]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Michael Grossman]] [[SJ]]
• [[Check ins]]
  • (Nazis sucked)
  • Emigration alternatives
    • German option
    • Netherlands
    • Spain
  • Second Trump term would suck as well (in a different way)
    • What’s wrong with the [[democratic party]]?
    • https://bra.in/2j9rrx
    • https://www.axios.com/2024/04/02/biden-gaza-blank-ballots-new-york-democratic-primary
    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked-choice_voting_in_the_United_States pull
    • https://bra.in/4j32Rr
    • [[Ezra Klein]]‘s take on [[Biden]]
    • [[beyond left melancholy]]: https://thebaffler.com/salvos/beyond-left-melancholy-proctor
  • [[SJ]]:
    • I would like your comments / feedback on two constructive things!
    • 1: this (shareable) series of 5 short [[one pagers]] on [[open science]]: https://docs.google.com/document/d/155sDqLGqPTEsGB9ZuYY9LNbOHZU8_DqBcc_812rthcE/
    • 2: [[knowledge integrity project]]: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ixbVNtKnsPpUEwJSKm1kpxGzgm5A0CGiLrxD51lqwoE

[[2024-03-20]]

• Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Flancian]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]

• [[Aram]]

  • [[build a website]]:
    • https://aramzs.me/baw -> https://aramzs.github.io/build-a-website/#/
  • on [[fenced frame]]:
    • https://wicg.github.io/fenced-frame/

• [[Peter]]

  • Working on courses, teaching people: [[chatgpt]] [[obsidian]] [[midjourney]]
  • On getting from there to ‘products’
    • Experimenting with ‘pay what you want’ with the obsidian one
    • Midjourney is $5/mo.
    • On the topic of curating/heavily editing/not publishing everything
    • Currently using [[gumroad]].
    • On contributing to the commons?
    • [[AZS]] you are generating a lot — how are you doing it?
      • [[PK]] have a lot of prepared prompts. Midjourney is also very well tuned to produce nice images, and it does so even with almost random prompts.
      • [[PK]] Midjourney doesn’t allow programmatic access in their terms of service.
      • [[AZS]] uses Midjourney to generate material for DMing, characters and maps.
      • [[AZS]] can you creative commons AI images given that you can’t copyright them? Maybe they are only [[public domain]]?
      • Can we just train further AIs on those and leave copyright behind? :)
    • [[Pete’s Courses]]:
      • [[Path shift people]]: https://pathshiftpeople.gumroad.com/
      • [[AI 101]]: https://ai101.peterkaminski.wiki/
      • the "beginner’s curriculum" i’ve started working on: https://ai101.peterkaminski.wiki/ai_101_building_blocks pull

• [[Eduardo]]

  • Participating in the [[Fediversalist Papers]] in 1h
  • Helping organize a [[GenAI hackathon]] at the day job

• On how to combine massive wiki / agora with new AI tools?

[[2024-03-13]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Flancian]] [[Chris Aldrich]]
• Daylight savings excitement :)
  • [[flancian]] now moved the next two instances to an earlier timeslot in EU
• [[check ins]]
  • [[Chris Aldrich]] doing well, also with writing projects, but car not doing so well
  • [[Peter Kaminski]] read about [[hookmark]]:
    • [[mac os]] only
    • https://hookproductivity.com/help/integration/using-hook-with-obsidian/
    • on [[deep links]] and [[uri schemes]]
    • [[Jerry]] on [[elgato stream pad]] and macro programming
    • [[david bovill]] and [[liquid democracy]]
      • https://bra.in/2qZEZB
  • [[Flancian]] is using [[betula]] for bookmarks, e.g. https://links.flancia.org/ pull
    • https://betula.mycorrhiza.wiki/ for more on it
    • federates
    • new https://anagora.org pull homepage
      • thanks for the bug report on weird behavior from embedding docs :)
  • [[Jerry Michalski]]
    • trying to succintly explain the thread connecting all the things I’m working on
    • some overhead in figuring out links between all projects
• Where do we want to go from here?
  • Last time we discussed [[composer]]
  • [[Neobooks]]
    • [[Flancian]] On [[Pattern Languages]]
      • [[Meta Pattern Language]]
      • take N top PLs and integrate them?
      • #JM on [[liberating structures]] which is an [[almost pattern language]]
        • [[flancian]] is interested in the class
        • #JM can envision a zoom/meet widget that helps facilitate meetings and run e.g. [[1 1 2 4 all]]: https://www.liberatingstructures.com/1-1-2-4-all/
        • In general an LLM interface to PLs
      • #CA reminds me of [[brian eno’s]] [[oblique strategies]]
      • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblique_Strategies pull
      • "Announcing JSON Canvas: an open file format for infinite canvas data - Obsidian" https://obsidian.md/blog/json-canvas/
    • #CA been working on a [[neobook]] (that I wasn’t calling as such)
      • structuring one for https://pkmsummit.com/
    • #PK And interesting news: "Announcing JSON Canvas: an open file format for infinite canvas data - Obsidian" https://obsidian.md/blog/json-canvas/
  • [[Flancian]] is a huge fan of [[silverbullet]]
  • [[Peter Kaminski]] working on [[Midjourney]] and [[LLM]] classes
    • Working on a simple frontend for [[LLMs]]
    • Calling it [[salamander]]
      • CLI and Flask
  • #CA Notes from 1w-2w ago when we were talking about [[neobooks]] and a possible pipeline
    • having a repository of ideas
      • generally indexed or interlinked
    • having a tool for creating an outline
    • having a tool to go from outline to full text
    • similar preexisting tools in this space:
      • tools that take URLs and create ‘books’ for people to read as pdf or mobi
    • #CA Here’s some of the prior art research on these sorts of reading lists: https://indieweb.org/reading_list
    • #FL would like to experiment with this last process in particular (outline to full text, set of nodes to text)
    • #PK A fast, free image viewer I use for sifting through thousands of images: Phoenix Slides https://blyt.net/phxslides/

[[2024-03-06]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Flancian]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Samuel Klein]]
• [[Check ins]]
  • [[Chris Aldrich]] shows us his Zettelkasten
    • 8 thousand approx. in one drawer (!)
    • But the background drawers hold many tens of thousands
    • [[flancian]] thought about digitizing?
    • [[aram zucker-scharff]] for backup purposes
      • https://simonwillison.net/2024/Feb/21/gemini-pro-video/ as a possible strategy for backups
  • [[Jerry Michalski]]
    • on [[Bahrain]] https://photos.app.goo.gl/S2MVcGm7Rg6VbAta9
    • on being a [[Beard]]
      • vs a [[Merkin]]
    • [[DXOS]] demo on [[Free Jerry’s Brain]] call
      • we’ll use [[composer]] for note taking
    • Q: freedom status of the brain?
      • Pete is looking into connecting the brain to GPT
  • [[Peter Kaminski]]: [[composer]] demo
    • https://tinyurl.com/3cfysbvp
  • On one [[opencollective]] shutting down — and three not doing so and doing well (?).
    • https://blog.opencollective.com/open-collective-official-statement-ocf-dissolution/
  • is [[composer]] and the [[local first]] approach without deep [[interlinking]]
    • better to invest on something simpler that can be gathered by the internet archive?
    • [[metasj]] would like something with incremental statements about provenance instead of high barrier to entry
    • [[metasj]] and definitely something that the [[internet archive]] can archive
    • strong privacy / strong identity is part of the requirements of the project
    • #CA I’m reminded here of https://linkingmanifesto.org/
    • #SJ says:chris: nice 😃 [[pdurbin]] likes to be "slopi" https://github.com/pdurbin/slopi-communication
    • #CA https://indieweb.org/local_first
    • on the limitations of the distributed-first approach, and whether they are inherent to the model or just tend to produce interfaces of a particular kind
    • #AZS on [[glitch]]
  • [[metasj]] on [[Flickr Commons]] and [[WikiPortraits]]
    • #JM [[storycorps]] meets [[tiktok]]

[[2024-02-28]]

• Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Flancian]] [[Samuel Klein]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
• On [[neobooks]]
  • The [[BFDL]] concept as it applies to this project :)
  • Reference [[neobook]]/first [[neobook]]
  • [[nuggetization]]
    • how it relates to translating between [[worldviews]]
    • The difficulty of finding editors to work with to help work them into neobooks
  • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
    • it seems likely that [[nuggets]] that are intended to be used within a [[neobook]] are going to be even harder to integrate elsewhere once "enhanced" by AI
    • AI will tend to ‘overwrite’ towards a particular problem
    • [[Peter Kaminski]] would agree, and in the case we’re discussing the AI expansion made the end result harder to process. But AI in general seems like a powertool: it can be used with skill and make you go faster, but they can get out of control.
    • [[Flancian]] on maybe defining nugget as ‘human written’ or at least ‘full of human meaning/curated by a human’.
    • [[Chris Aldrich]] have you thought about going from Agora nodes to books/other format?
      • As per <reference></reference>
        • The Spectator newspaper from the early 1700s
        • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spectator_(1711) pull
      • [[the case for books]] by [[Robert Darnton]] as an anthology "book" comprised of previously written magazine articles
  • Precedents for [[nuggetization]] and [[composition]]
    • composition:
      • as per the above examples
    • nuggetization
      • wiki culture
  • Repository of good nuggets?
    • https://wiki.openglobalmind.com/search pull
      • Q: how do you do search?
      • A: [[LUNR]]. https://stork-search.net/ also exists.
    • https://hypothes.is/users/chrisaldrich
  • [[indie search]]:
    • [[static search]]: https://context.center/topics/indie-search/#search-for-static-sites

[[2024-02-21]]

• Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Flancian]] [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Samuel Klein]]
  • ([[Bentley Davis]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Chris Aldrich]] might join)
• [[check ins]]
  • [[Peter Kaminski]]
    • working on an [[AI newsletter]]:
      • https://store.pathshiftpeople.com/l/pretty-pictures-with-pete
    • and the [[Plex dispatch]]:
      • inter community newsletter for [[OGM]] and other related communities
      • https://plex.collectivesensecommons.org/2024-02-07/ for the latest
    • [[meta]] Q: how much time per newsletter?
      • Plex: 6-8h per issue
      • AI: still unsure, but it’s probably 1h for each (a few times a week).
    • on doing away with stock photography
      • legal insurance apparently is a factor here
      • is this a risk if we replace more stock photography companies with fewer AI companies?
        • maybe but it’s not a very democratic industry/market to begin with
      • on [[distracted boyfriend]] and how that was produced
    • would [[pixelthesia]] scale to millions of images?
      • it’s [[smugmug]] underneath
      • [[pixelthesia]]: https://www.pixelthesia.ai/
      • on [[toy story]] and the affordances it provided early in the development of computer graphics
      • on the pipeline from unique distinguishing factor to ‘given’
    • #JM on [[creativity inc]]
    • on [[Sora]] and other pushback against current approaches
    • #JM on mispredicting the future
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] thinking about the Metaverse in preparation for Bahrain
    • [[issues with the metaverse]]:
      • [[ergonomics]]
      • [[interpersonal]] limitations
    • #SJ but [[head up displays]] are great
    • on [[ambient computing]]
      • and [[plug and play]] everything: e.g. [[battery packs]] for cars
  • [[Flancian]]
    • any progress on finding or building the [[generative commons]]?
      • [[mistral]] is great
      • [[huggingchat]] is solid
      • #JM https://generativecommons.org
        • https://bra.in/2qzKJ6
      • #SJ https://publicai.network and https://gen.studio
        • have been running a seminar for people building infrastructure
        • people from a dozen countries working on their own projects
        • there’s definitely potential in this
        • let’s start a stone soup
      • #JM should we start a plan?
        • +1
        • #SJ I like starting with a namespace
          • in order to call it a commons we need to:
            • have a namespace
            • a mechanism for classifying
          • people seem interested in participating in a commons in general, but we need to have one we can point to as successful
          • it probably needs to be as general as possible, close to just a set of thing
        • the [[generative commons]] could include:
          • [[corpora]]
          • [[generated outputs]]
        • the default interface could be a playground connecting sources, prompts to outputs
          • [[prompt router]] with flows to contribute back to the commons
      • #JM my approach was very intentional
      • #PK pays for [[stealth mode]] in [[midjourney]]
      • #SJ whatever this commons is, it should be a good place to develop alternatives to services provided by corporations
        • The commons could be a better market than the market, decouple also provider/producer communities from walled gardens (and empower them)
      • #JM [[AI Salon]] https://www.meetup.com/the-ai-salon/
      • #JM [[nanopub]]: https://nanopub.net/
        • [[nanodash]]: https://nanodash.knowledgepixels.com/explore?id=RAxPdvy5RN-jyPOMcBNEsUEn2CPBtAa3W0Ct3tbID4PiM
      • #PK [[nostr]] and [[nips]]
      • on the problem of [[moderation]] and how it relates to [[commons]]
        • [[governing the commons]]
    • [[huggingchat]]
      • #SJ has [[midjourney]] produced a commons by default?
    • found (and really like) [[silver bullet]] == [[silverbullet.md]]
• [[gemma]]:
  • https://opensource.googleblog.com/2024/02/building-open-models-responsibly-gemini-era.html

[[2024-02-14]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Bentley Davis]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
• [[check ins]]
  • [[Flancian]]
    • sick again :( but not terrible
    • still dealing with labour and interpersonal issues at work, but getting better
  • [[Jerry Michalski]]
    • will be in [[Bahrain]] for a panel, connected with the grand prix and the [[metaverse]]
    • long flights, in particular on the way back!
      • might read + write
    • [[masters of the air]] like [[band of brothers]] but not as good
  • [[Chris Aldrich]]
    • Joining a meetup! [[Tinderbox]] podcast
      • Sunday 18th, 9am-10:30 Pacific
      • #JM did that podcast: https://bra.in/2qeYrg
    • [[Tinderbox meetup]]: https://forum.eastgate.com/c/events-for-tinderbox-storyspace/13
• Next Monday: [[free Jerry’s brain]] demo, [[1PM Pacific]]
  • [[rich burdon]]
  • distributed open source platform, own your own data
  • [[braneframe]]: https://www.braneframe.com
  • [[dxos]]: https://dxos.org
• Topics from last time
  • [[autopoiesis]]
  • [[neobooks]]
• [[collective authoring]] as distinct from the basics of [[book publishing]]
  • the default sort of social interaction so far for neobooks are github/git forge fork-and-send-PRs
  • are there any less geeky ways to contribute/interact?
    • commenting systems
    • [[hypothes.is]]
  • do we need an analog for copy-and-paste for how to collaborate in a distributed mesh of documents?
    • [[conflict resolution]] is one part of this
    • we can check the variety of wikis that are built on top of [[git]] plus [[markdown]] plus [[wikilinks]]
  • there is a reason we end up with git as a backend; the alternatives are more computationally expensive, require servers or parties to run software.
  • [[google docs]] as a model maybe — the comments-only access is something we might want an equivalent for
    • [[etherpad]]
    • something built on [[crdt]]
    • #push [[P2]]
      • Editing collaboratively meets comment threading via https://wordpress.com/p2/
  • on the topic of group memory; how not to start every conversation with a relatively blank slate
    • [[denormalization]] and [[cross posting]] of notes
    • [[posse]]: https://indieweb.org/POSSE
• [[cross posting]] of [[bluesky]] and the [[federation]]
  • https://snarfed.org/2024-01-21_moderate-people-not-code
  • https://snarfed.org/2024-02-05_52058
  • #AZS wish there were different models of federation
    • on being more focused on being broadcasters than collectors
  • #CA how do we map thousands of years of social evolution onto the possibilities of digital communities
    • [[the internet con]] by [[doctorow]] makes the case that we should go towards smaller distributed communities that can make their decisions
    • on how choosing an instance or platform is also about choosing what one wants to signal (or broadcast)
    • [[posse]] lets you pick and choose which communities you cross-post to; if you’re [[indieweb]] first you probably don’t care as much about the visibility that one single instance has over the rest of the fediverse
    • #AZS people are not necessarily posting on social media with the assumption that everybody will care; they assume there is in practice a small neighborhood. That is true until it isn’t (see e.g. unexpected virality)
    • #JM about [[boundaries]]: a well functioning group understands its boundaries and its norms
      • and expectations
• #CA [[Book Club]] on [[Cataloging the World]] and Index, A History of the
  • https://boffosocko.com/2024/02/11/book-club-on-cataloging-the-world-and-index-a-history-of-the/
  • [[Dan Allosso]]
• [[Intimacy Gradient]]
  • Expectations around where and when you expect people to engage with you.
  • Maybe we could carry our own ‘terms of service’ / privacy and engagement settings in a platform-agnostic way
  • #CA media has adapted and changed in its standards as well; newspapers in the early 20th century had completely different standards w.r.t. privacy expectations than towards the end.
  • On evolving [[civility standards]]
    • [[Trump]] exploiting this
• Need different spaces and contexts where it one can be in rough notes, drafty, professional, etc…

[[2024-02-07]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Bentley Davis]]
• [[NeoBooks]] how to lower the bar both technologically as well as from a community perspective
• Notes in [[Jerry’s Brain]]: https://bra.in/9vAgo3

[[2023-01-31]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Flancian]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] (Half time) [[Peter Kaminski]]
• Round the table
  • January is gone! But the year is only just started ;)
  • [[Jerry]]
    • Met an [[NLP]] master, in the [[neurolinguistic programming]] sense
      • [[family constellations]]
        • facilitated exercise, elicited emotions in several
        • family structure as it influences personality development
        • exercise recommended
      • [[Bert Hellinger]] :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bert_Hellinger pull
  • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] dealing with team reorgs
    • Also pushing forward on code projects like [[song obsessed]]
      • Looking at http://www.liveplasma.com/ for integration into the site
    • Looking forward to next week — vacation in a cabin!
      • With someone who bakes bread \o/
  • [[Peter Kaminski]] connecting GPT and the brain!
    • [[curl]] was hanging
      • wasn’t specifying ‘don’t search full text’ thing, it was super slow
      • full text search doesn’t really seem to work in the Brain API
      • will try to report the bug to tech support
      • the idea is to make gpt call the brain api
      • (on the pros and cons of using the gpt marketplace approach vs server-side calling both the [[brain api]] and the [[openai api]])
    • https://ai101.peterkaminski.wiki/let’s_build_an_api_and_a_gpt,_2023-12-05 pull
  • [[Chris Aldrich]]
    • recovering
    • working on a [[book project]] and trying to figure out how that relates to [[neobooks]] as per ongoing conversations
  • [[Flancian]]
    • working on worker relations
      • [[aram]] on that at the post
        • shift to more traditional engineering organization structure
        • would like to see more stability soon
        • [[chris aldrich]] contact [[Ben Werdmuller]] from [[indieweb]] now heading up technology at [[pro publica]]
    • but took two days to visit [[Thun]]
• FotL Nuggets
  • "Assignment for Next Call: Everyone Write a Nugget about Something Memorable from These Calls"
  • [[aram zucker-scharff]] Aggregation, Amplification, and Archiving - Fellowship of the Link
    • [[comment section]] is just github issues
    • would love all feedback/responses!
  • [[Flancian]] cheated and made my nugget the node [[nuggets]] in the Agora :)
    • https://anagora.org/nuggets pull is/will be a list of all known nuggets we mention
  • [[Chris Aldrich]] on the [[Dahlonega Nugget]], a newspaper in a gold rush town :)
    • His daughter named a stuffed racoon toy she got there "Nugget"
  • [[Peter Kaminski]] some feedback on [[nugget]] as a name, from a conversation with other people:
    • too concrete
    • and too "[[nounish]]" and not "[[verbish]]" enough
      • or, too much of an object, and not enough of a process
      • The (Hopi) World According to Whorf
    • what would the verb be?
      • part of it would be an adjective, "composable" (and thence, decomposable)
    • [[Jerry Michalski]] also got some feedback on the focus on the book aspect — maybe it’s good to recenter from the object to the community
      • Note though that verb-centric languages are a minority
    • [[Chris Aldrich]] related dissonance in the note taking space and the tension between different "levels" (e.g. from note to section to book)
      • Everybody’s perspective will be different
      • How do you reuse a whole chapter?
        • [[Jerry]] Chapter size would be too large likely. They might be
    • [[Flancian]] maybe similar
      • and types
      • [[node]] as verb from [[everything2]]
      • [[Jerry]] on mediawiki
        • [[flancian]] on [[semantic mediawiki]]
        • [[Jerry]] some experiences in the past, was turned off by page renaming not rippling back — some clunkyness
        • [[Peter Kaminski]] set it up :)
        • [[Chris Aldrich]] on the tradeoff between flexibility and complexity (and clunkiness)
          • Example from [[drupal]]
• Ben Werdmuller to Propublica
• Meta/vocabulary check on whether we want to iterate on the [[nugget]] terminology.
  • Pro: something valuable and small-ish; memorable.
  • #PK in feedback it seems like people might focus on different attributes; what is key to me from the thing is the [[composability]]
  • [[Jerry]] [[mother]] from [[SCOBY]]
  • [[legos]] but better?
  • planting seeds and [[grafting]]?
  • threads and knitting, weaving
  • [[quipus]]
    • different
    • but in the same "universe"
  • [[pearls]] (as nuggets of value) and [[purls]] (as in [[purl stitch]])
  • [[pattern]]?
    • too large
  • [[particle]]
  • would [[fragment]] describe it?
    • it makes it seem as it’s incomplete
  • an [[x]], or a [[nugget]]:
    • is [[complete]] yet [[composable]]
  • How does this notion relate to the concept of neobook? Should we use something which is a book-related metaphor?
  • #CA or from the idea of playlists, call them "music"
  • #CA [[thesaurus]] as ‘repository for treasure’
  • [[jewels]] and [[indra’s net]]
  • [[trichobezoars]] and [[ambergris]]
  • further on grain metaphor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horreum pull

[[2023-01-24]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Flancian]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Michael Grossman]] [[Bentley Davis]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Peter Kaminski]]
• [[Jerry Michalski]] and [[Peter Kaminski]] on a productive call about [[massive wiki]] and lots more!
  • Next Wednesday is [[Massive Wiki Wednesday]]
  • 1h30m later than this call
  • Will cover the future of Massive Wiki
• Could we have a dashboard of all [[calls]] in our space
  • #PK has something Google Sheets based, using Sheets as a grid/table editor
    • https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qjSuYW1xChKJNCLK_cyMjJO_Ejc53RDYwRcvtRONLY0/edit
    • Pete is proud of the timezone legend columns at the left
    • stopped updating in Sheets because some boxes and their borders span multiple cells; like overall look, but need a better grid editor that is better at multiple cell boxes
  • Present as a neobook?
    • Shared agenda
• [[Flancian]]
  • Open letters and neobooks
  • Looking at open letters in history
  • https://bra.in/2jM4Qe
• [[Jerry Michalski]]
  • How is it different from a viral post
• [[Flancian]]
  • Intention
  • Notion of who is reading
  • Some level of meta awareness
  • There are some similarities
  • Neobooks and how they connect
    • Same shape as an Agora node
    • Open letters are hugely interesting.
    • They get amplified with history
    • Similarly new media
    • The internet evolves similar
• [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
  • Also a useful characteristic to think of for both neobooks and open letters is portability
    • +1, and publishing has been a key factor in which open letters became popular/"successful" for a purpose in the past. MLK’s publishing story is interesting
• [[Jerry Michalski]]
  • composability
  • https://bra.in/3jgE2p
  • Manifestos - too many authors have robbed them of a degree of their potency?
• [[Aram]] an interesting characteristic of open letters:
  • in modern times open letters are implied to have many authors, or have been created with a degree of anonymity
  • [[letter on corpulence]] :)
  • on expanding circles of trust
  • [[google docs]] as defacto publishing platform
  • #JM about inspirations for [[neobooks]]
    • [[nuggets]] are supposed to be small yet valuable
    • [[indra’s net]]
      • -> [[fritjof capra]]
      • -> the fear
    • [[glass bead game]]
      • -> [[neuromancer]]
    • are [[neobooks]]:
      • [[nuggets]] as objects
        • they have [[metadata]]
        • and [[ordering]]
      • [[linked]]
      • and [[transcluded]]?
    • [[anything missing]]?
      • aggregation?
        • MVP is: a new nugget which transcludes everything in a list
      • Ordering?
      • Contexting?
        • Can be seen as 1. composition and 2. a type system.
      • [[extraclusion]]
        • ‘take this part of this page and publish it there’
        • this sounds a lot like [[push]] in the Agora
      • ability to include/exclude e.g. headers
        • rich contextual snippets — [[oembed]] like
        • embed modes? Full, [[oembed]], brief?
      • would like to conceptually transclude or aggregate a number of pages, and I want that to be the corpus or knowledge base for a chat bot
        • throw a [[lasso]] around a set of nuggets and produce something with them
        • -> like a doc, to begin with simply
        • -> [[fruiting bodies]]
          • leads back to the notion of multiple language levels on top of languages, which we have covered before
          • neobooks are Mushrooms from The Big Fungus - https://app.thebrain.com/brain/3d80058c-14d8-5361-0b61-a061f89baf87/51b0b67d-d333-435d-af18-7f0194683289
        • -> on context as user set prompt
      • [[open letters]] in the brain: https://app.thebrain.com/brain/3d80058c-14d8-5361-0b61-a061f89baf87/a030353f-c917-3d29-fc19-70912f8aef80
      • See assignment section below -> let’s all produce one [[nugget]] for next week? something having to do with the fellowship directly or indirectly :)
• which direction to go to now?
  • [[nugget a week]]
    • [[webmentions]] would be ideal
      • [[bridgy fed]] by [[snarfed]]
        • some concerns about the difficulty of self-hosting
        • for now some consider it a SPOF
        • ideal model could be: something that works like nostr, where you can just point your system to a set of bridgy fed instances and it balances
    • we can start by posting to the mattermost challenge — links to anything
    • [[IETF]]: a protocol is not ready until you have two independent implementations
      • the maybe-problem of [[Mastodon]]
        • [[Mastodon]] copies Twitter too much
        • [[Mastodon]] does not do enough
      • [[twitter is not a microphone]] https://www.schizochronotopia.com/p/on-twitter-we-look-down
        • [[meta]] on [[substack]] as a hosting platform
          • [[micro.blog]] as federated alternative maybe?
          • c.f. something open like https://github.com/tsileo/microblog.pub ?
          • what about the [[payment]] aspect of it? it’s important for many writers.
          • [[ghost]] is very opinionated engineering
            • #PK observes that Ghost has a great post editing interface, and the email newsletter distribution works well
          • [[beehiiv]] is also focused on newsletters
          • [[buttondown]]
          • [[aram]] on the challenges of independent tools in this space — in particular the problem of email deliverability (negotiating automated anti-spam false positives as it affects newsletters)

Assignment

• Compose a 1 paragraph nugget on something that struck you in a [[FotL]] meeting

[[2023-01-17]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Flancian]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Michael Grossman]] [[Bentley Davis]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Peter Kaminski]]
• [[flancian]] on [[layoffs]] :(
  • and [[Barbarians]], the [[Market]], maybe [[Moloch]])
• [[Jerry Michalski]] on [[neobooks]]
  • [[Design from Trust]]
    • Like a [[books playlist]]
  • Meta on how to write [[neobooks]]
  • [[Markdown extension levels]]
    • [[Peter Kaminski]]
    • [[agora protocol]]
    • [[github links]]

[[2023-12-20]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Michael Grossman]] [[Flancian]]
• On end of the year and the year as it was
• On [[sizzle reels]]
  • [[April Rinne]]: https://vimeo.com/885454720?share=copy
  • on [[GPTV]] and [[Pika]]
  • on [[storyboard generator]]
• [[Topics]]
  • [[flancian]] has a demo :)
    • as part of [[december adventure]]
    • [[mistral]] integration :)
    • on [[neobooks]]
  • [[michael grossman]] thoughts about objects and [[personal archiving]]
    • how to help people [[inventory]] and deal with facts in their lives
    • this is particularly relevant for older people maybe
    • would like to:
      • help people know what they have
      • and their value as it relates with e.g. online markets
      • [[passive marketplace]] and also [[not a marketplace]]
    • [[jerry michalski]]
      • take pictures of spines of books
    • #MG From the Tenement museum, people tell stories attached to objects: https://yourstory.tenement.org/stories
  • [[jerry michalski]] [[thinking like a neobook]]
  • [[aram zucker-scharff]]
    • working on a demo of a media player and website configuration that lets you build static pages but have them act in a single page application style way, with the particularity that the media player is sticky/always on top while you browse around the site

[[2023-12-06]]

• Attending: [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Bentley]] [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Flancian]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Michael Grossman]]
• Checkins
  • Health issues galore
    • [[Slime]] / [[cold]]
    • [[Malaria]]
    • and other [[Parasites]] :(
  • [[poop bank]] idea
    • on transporting biomes
    • [[against the grain]]: a book
      • [[cooked]] and [[uncooked]] people
      • [[age old divide]]: [[city]] vs [[countryside]]
        • [[murray bookchin]]
  • on sarcastic vs earnest AIs
• What’s on our minds?
  • [[AIs]] as per the above
  • [[Publishing industry]] woes
    • #JM on [[April]]‘s experience: most publishers are picking top 2-3 books to advertise/market and not marketing the others at all
      • she participated in ~100 podcasts.
      • [[book]]: https://fluxmindset.com
  • [[Neobook]]:
    • #JM [[Books]] are rollups of [[nuggets]]
    • #CA which licensing are you putting on the books you’re writing?
      • #JM CC0 is the default
    • #CA are you aware of [[OER]]: [[Open Educational Resources]]?
      • https://bra.in/2vNAeW
      • https://boffosocko.com/2018/08/30/the-sixth-r-of-open-educational-resources-oer/
    • [[neobooks]]:
      • [[design from trust]]:
        • https://wiki.openglobalmind.com/projects/jerry’s_nuggets/dft_book_contents_(the_toc) pull
        • https://link.agor.ai/nuggets-are-really-powerful is interesting
        • on [[types]] of [[nuggets]] and their [[outputs]]
      • and three-four more :)
      • #CA on [[webmentions]] as a framework for communicating derivative work — on getting [[linkbacks]]
      • [[flancian]] [[webfinger]] for communicating about users/authors and [[webmentions]] for communicating about [[nuggets]]?
      • #CA [[marginalia]] using [[indieweb]]: https://kartikprabhu.com/article/indieweb-love-blog
      • #JM https://www.workings.tools/p/wonkish-obsidian-footnotes-as-sidenotes
      • #CA [[the great conversation]]: "the reason you want to read Aristotle and Plato is that they started a conversation we’re still having thousands of years later".
        • https://www.amazon.com/Great-Conversation-Books-Western-World/dp/B000BO9PHY/jerrymichalskisr
        • Jerry Michalski says: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Conversation pull
        • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Maynard_Hutchins pull
      • #CA https://mitpressonpubpub.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/syyor4ra/release/1#commentary-and-the-talmud as an exam
  • [[Agora]] + [[December Adventure]] updates

[[2023-11-29]]

• Attending: [[Peter Kaminski]] [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Flancian]]
• [[Peter Kaminski]]
  • Teaching AI to people.
  • Got back into [[NFTs]].
    • Platform for AI art.
    • [[Midjourney]] art.
      • Some of it rises into fine art territory.
  • [[Thessos]] [[hic et nunc]] [[thea]]
  • [[question for this group]]
    • looking for a new [[mastodon]] server
    • [[flancian]] likes social.coop :D
    • [[chris aldrich]] have you considered building [[activitypub]] into [[massive wiki]]?
      • [[pk]] some concerns with how AP works as a protocol, how the community innovates
        • [[nostr]] seems more promising community wise maybe
        • [[aram zucker-scharff]] interesting; I like the protocol but never felt like they had any community development
        • [[pk]] likes the [[NIP]]s
        • [[activitypub]] is more traditional governance wise
        • [[azs]] interesting, from my perspective it seems like the opposite! take e.g. [[pixelhub]] doing independent development of [[ap]]
        • [[ca]] https://phanpy.social/#/universeodon.com/s/111478703259005044?view=full
        • [[ca]] wordpress is working on being [[activitypub]] compatible
        • [[peter kaminski]] [[ghost]] with [[activitypub]] seems really nice
        • [[flancian]] it seems like it is near mainstream.
          • planning on adding support to the [[agora]]
          • [[bouncepaw]] added it to [[betula]]
        • [[azs]] it seems like it’s winning for the ‘event feed’ space
      • [[bluesky]] as compared to [[activitypub]] and [[nostr]]
    • on the pitfalls of being in a small [[mastodon]] instance
      • you don’t know what you don’t know: you’ll only see very few hashtags
    • on the fragmentation of the fediverse due to no platform supporting all content types/activities
      • [[mastodon]]
      • [[pixelfed]]
      • [[peertube]]
      • [[write freely]]
    • on what [[wordpress]] managed to pull off
      • [[automattic]]
      • on the [[tumblr]] [[activitypub]] promise
    • [[ca]]
      • [[micro.blog]] is a good social reader for reading blogs, mastodon, etc.
        • Here’s the reader version of my website in micro.blog: https://micro.blog/chrisaldrich@boffosocko.com
      • I’m thinking some of the problems of supporting all the things are related to [[Ross Ashby]]‘s law of requisite variety: https://www.edge.org/response-detail/27150
    • on [[adaptive interfaces]]
      • quality that comes out of limitations (e.g. twitter surfacing only a tiny text box to write — or index cards)
      • ideal writing interfaces?
        • [[twitter]]
        • [[ghost]]
        • [[typora]]
        • [[bear]]
    • [[factr]]
    • [[sweetcron]] https://code.google.com/archive/p/sweetcron/
      • something like this should exist but it doesn’t seem like it currently does?
    • [[flancian]] on the idea of the [[signup router]] and integrating activitypub streams onto a higher level ‘person’ (or circle?) entity
    • [[ca]] I think all the variations of cross-posting and their directionality are documented here: https://indieweb.org/cross-posting
      • Dec 16-17 [[indieweb camp]] in person: https://indieweb.org/2023/SD

[[2023-11-08]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Peter Kaminski]], [[Chris Aldrich]], [[Michael Grossman]]
  • GPTs new feature from open AI
  • https://openai.com/blog/introducing-gpts
    • Aram: Potentially helping out on licencing.
  • Alternative being worked on - https://poe.com/login
    • Can be monitized.
  • OpenAI is crap at billing and that makes accessing new features that are gated behind a payment level hard.
  • https://questy.ai/
  • AI Entrepreneurship
    • https://myhub.ai/
    • Thinking about how to start stuff up around AI and how they can get marketing and startup help.
    • Special interest group of AI entrepreneurs.
    • What do we do with large language models and the brain?
    • [[AI + Knowledge Graphs]]
  • #push [[TheClimateWeb]]
    • Climate Change materials and research in the Brain app - a commercial product.
    • http://www.theclimateweb.com/
  • Climate
    • Chris: Interesting look at some of the problems around informing people and the history here in [[The Parrot and the Igloo: Climate and the Science of Denial]] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/56769547-the-parrot-and-the-igloo?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=WHye3QAKxt&rank=1
    • Also check out [[Merchants of Doubt: How a Handful of Scientists Obscured the Truth on Issues from Tobacco Smoke to Global Warming]]
    • Peter: von Humboldt’s observation re:climate is ca. 1819. https://blog.biodiversitylibrary.org/2020/10/alexander-von-humboldt.html#:~:text=It%20was%20also%20in%20Cumana,climate%20change%20and%20destroy%20ecosystems
      • Jerry: https://www.alternet.org/2019/09/alexander-von-humboldt-the-first-person-to-understand-climate-change-more-than-200-years-ago
    • Aram: Some explainers I found on this that were pretty good - https://context.center/topics/climate-change/#explainers
      • And a collection on dealing with misinformation - https://context.center/topics/misinformation/#dealing-with-misinformation
    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol pull
    • https://www.versobooks.com/products/2649-how-to-blow-up-a-pipeline
    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monkey_Wrench_Gang pull
    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Attali pull
    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecotopia pull
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homestead_strike pull
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain pull
    • Good on blair mountain - https://youtu.be/CGGWcFArufA?si=dFZH_Y1ngppfvTWR
  • https://www.gawker.com/politics/the-joe-manchin-trolley-problem
  • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(historical_analysis) pull

[[2023-10-18]]

• Attending: [[Chris Aldrich]] [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Peter Kaminski]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Bentley Davis]], [[Eduardo Ivanec]]
  • Possible projects
    • [[social rerere]]
    • [[knowledge commons]] extension for [[obsidian]], [[vscode]]
      • lets you hook up vaults/repos with e.g. [[massive wiki]], [[agora]], other projects in this space.
    • [[plugins]] are the way to go
    • [[chris aldrich]] if you can put together something that solves ‘publishing’ for free (obsidian sync-like)
  • We had a ‘split community’ situation today because of Jitsi + Meet
    • We’ll be converging onto Zoom from now on for a few iterations as Jitsi is not working great sometimes, and Meet doesn’t support recordings
    • Expect the link to be:
  • More on sync
    • [[synthing]] works quite well with obsidian, and is non-tech-user-friendly
  • [[neobooks]] next week
    • on transclusion: https://prosefusion.cloud/git_and_github_notes/pete’s_git_tips_and_tricks/git_tips_and_tricks
    • looking forward to write!

[[2023-10-11]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Flancian]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Peter Kaminski]], [[Samuel Klein]]
  • context.center has gotten hooked up successfully with the Agora!
    • differences with linebreak interpretations
    • Interesting to see a paywalled personal wiki - https://wiki.nikiv.dev/web/search-engines pull
    • B/c Agora is not looking at JSON it doesn’t pull in the archived articles, but that’s ok it prob shouldn’t.
  • discussing #PAIN [[public ai network]] https://publicai.network/
    • (missed the beginning)
    • [[metasj]] mix of closed and open models
      • half of the project is to create a shared vocabulary; half is putting together the community (incl. public institutions) to build a commons
      • national models — e.g. gpt-sw3
      • [[aram zucker-scharff]] hadn’t heard of these national models/sweden case, would love to read more about that
      • [[pk]] + [[metasj]] https://www.ai.se/en/node/81535/gpt-sw3
      • [[aram zucker-scharff]] on the potential of public data loss
  • what else do we want to take on today?
    • [[flancian]] [[neobooks]]
    • extending the [[102 great ideas]] project and other friendly-parasitical (symbiotic) projects
    • or extending [[pattern language]]
      • [[metasj]] [[patternity test]] https://wiki.c2.com/?PatternityTest pull
      • [[Adler]] | [[Alexander]] | [[Gunkel]]
      • [[dewey system]] for pattern languages?
        • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Decimal_Classification pull replaces it?
        • [[metasj]]
          • there’s an initiative to normalize the UDC and have it replace the DDS in the US
          • even people at WorldCat are thinking about it (and they’re not particularly bias-free)
          • [[bruck fikru]]
    • [[jerry michalski]] what about the decolonizing version of [[102 great ideas]]
      • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Otlet pull
    • [[peter kaminski]] current LLM corpuses are large but not very inclusive of libraries
    • are people working towards getting national libraries into LLMs?
      • a lot of things are not yet scanned
      • which proportion made it already?
      • on the titanic battle brewing over copyright/ip
      • see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_Wars_(film) pull
  • on the legal battles that are coming
    • [[pk]] think they might peter out / be settled in private
      • on the possible outcome being [[pay to play]] / [[open ai]] pulling the ladder (and complaining while they do it)
    • [[mistral]]
    • [[brainstorming]] [[open letters]] ;)

[[2023-09-27]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Flancian]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Chris Aldrich]]
• On traffic controllers and Reagan
  • Ongoing strikes: writers, actors. There is high public approval for these.
  • On the sustainability of the GOP being anti-labour.
  • How did the republicans end up being middle-america/"popular" and the democrats end up being "intellectual"?
  • What about some new parties for a change ;)
  • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] https://twitter.com/bcmerchant/status/1706898148692762627 pull - discussion about luddism in hackernews
  • On coopting the language of labour.
  • [[the making of donald trump]] mentions [[4000 lawsuits]].
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] on the weird hybrid of [[obamacare]] and the so called [[death panels]]
    • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_panel pull
    • do we need a ‘media drumbeat’ to push back against this kind of thing?
    • where?
  • on the take "[[podcasts]] have become right wing media"
    • content policies are harder to enforce in audio land as it’s easy to distribute (unlike video) and not too easy to parse/consume/detect (unlike text) (for now?).
  • [[vtaiwan]]
    • to reduce flamewars, they removed the reply feature (!)
    • [[chris aldrich]] on newspapers removing comments sections — and their history.
      • [[free speech]] vs [[free reach]]
      • https://www.wired.com/story/free-speech-is-not-the-same-as-free-reach/
    • [[aram]] actually users are still really engaged with comments sections — the reason that most publishers took them down was the moderation burden
      • comments-to-article pipelines were working quite well when they were being run
    • [[flancian]] on the [[moderation commons]]
      • on quote tweets
      • an ongoing proposal: generalizing fediblock
    • [[jerry michalski]]
      • early aol forums
      • name recognition of forum handles
    • [[aram zucker-scharff]]
      • on different approaches to comments
        • [[indieweb]]: you don’t have normal replies to a post, you have to create a new post and link it to what you’re commenting on
        • [[twitter]] and quote tweets
        • [[activitypub]] and [[mastodon]] design decisions (in particular not supporting)
• [[neobooks]]
  • one of Jerry’s collaborators uses google docs instead of obsidian
  • [[chris aldrich]] how do you leave signposts to see resources elsewhere? e.g. in wikipedia, in an agora, etc.
  • [[jerry michalski]] maintains a neighborhood visibility aspect in his brain
  • [[chris aldrich]] [[zettelkasten]] has this in the sense of always having physical neighbors to the current index card
  • [[102 great ideas]] https://boffosocko.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/102-Ideas.jpg
  • [[great books of the western world]] https://books.google.com/books?id=p0gEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA92&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false
  • on feeding the [[noosphere]]
    • is it a good term?
• Check ins
• Shared projects
  • #push [[fotl projects]]
    • [[intertwingle]] our notes together
    • write [[neobooks]]

[[2023-09-20]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Flancian]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Peter Kaminski]]

• Check ins

  • [[Jerry Michalski]] would be interested in being hired for more presentations/speeches
    • On [[cyborg]] as a term, some people apparently object to the term?
    • ([[Jitsi]] melted down at this point)
  • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] on [[Cyborgness]] - video cued to the specific part of the discusion - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvYcunuF3Eo&t=1709s
    • On babies reaching into ipads
    • [[digital retinas]]

• Useful open source video editing with

  • [[OpenShot]] - https://www.openshot.org/
  • avidemux
  • Drop into Quicktime

• [[flancian]] presentation (maybe): https://anagora.org/go/agora-slides pull

  • three facets
    • a space - the definition of an agora the one best known
      • public, mostly virtual, but has semi public sub-spaces (stoas). Different groups met in the different spaces and allowed people to join in and be part of something.
      • Go beyond the commons concern of the market
    • A distributed knowledge graph
      • Give it a list or repositories or resources and the agora will try to mash them together, find connections, find patterns, connect them.
    • A social network
      • an integration between social graphs and knowledge graphs and hopefully will make it part of the fediverse and t/f give it a clearer part of the social network concept.
  • Both a vision and a hypothesis
    • pro-social subsets of the internet would benefit from wide availability of a free [[interlay]] (as in the [[underlay project]]) provisioned and governed by a community as a commons.
    • For the common good.
    • Follow the principles of a commons.
    • Develop tools and instructions to make it more likely that such a connective layer arrises with these characteristics.
    • The agora is not good enough yet to be the connective layer but aims to be a bootstrap.
  • Note taking, wiki building, web annotating, communities, seem to have unique opportunity at hand. Possible to self-organize in cooperative groups and set up ways to federate within a commons.
  • Find common patterns and exploit them using the system where we can.
  • Design principles
    • Simple as possible
    • Leverage existing conventions and formats
    • bootstrap and build better ones from the bootstrap
  • Key characteristics
    • free software enabling a community to provision a basic knowledge commons
    • requires little of would be integrators and give back generously to participating communities.
    • inclusive and makes use of existing conventions, formats, tools, and networks for as long as practical.
  • Architecture
    • Agora Bridge
      • Software
      • User repositories
      • Social media
      • …
      • Imports users’ repositories every 30s and handles them. Usually git. Takes MassiveWiki and Social Media
    • Agora root repository
      • List of repositories
      • Configuration and bootstrap procedures
      • Base content
    • Agora Server
      • Software
      • Web interface
      • Interlink procedures
      • Accessed by browser
      • Python and Flask server
      • Points to a root repository and with those resources attempt to find the patterns and pull out nodes which then get served to the user.
      • May present notes on the same node by different users across different contexts.
  • Node
    • High level entity
    • Location on the knowledge graph
    • Can hold information from multiple users and join different files
    • Node can have Subnodes by different authors.
    • Links in Nodes will be seen and link those nodes together at the Agora level.
    • Nodes are social
    • See anagora.org/nodes for visualization
    • Common patterns:
      • [[Digital Garden Note]]
      • [[Blog Post]]
      • [[Personal Wiki Page]]
      • [[Journal]]
      • [[Node Club]]
    • You can agree on a slice for a concept and then right away start coordinating - exactly like using a hashtag
      • Socail media works with hashtags to integrate into this concept.
      • Agora lets you hashtag anywhere
  • Stoas
    • Social too
    • Locaitons that act as semi public spaces
    • Set up a hedge doc that is totally anonymous.
    • Will get processed into the Angora within 30 sec.
    • Etherpad and Jitsi both can get pulled in to a Stoas.
  • Heavily uses iFrames whenever possible
  • Default empty pages are a call to action
  • How to join!
    • Take notes in your fav tool
    • Publish in platform - usually git.
    • Let an Agora maintainer know about it.
  • Wikilinks everywhere
    • Edges are [[wikilinks]] which refer to other nodes as found in volunteered subnodes
  • Idea of composing notes
    • Some notes have special behavior
    • [[go]] notes - #go url or [[go/foo]]
    • [[pull]] - bring in the resource at bar with #pull bar
    • [[push]] - push out the resource to foo with #push foo

[[2023-09-06]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Chris Aldrich]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[David Pickrell]], [[Flancian]], [[Michael Grossman]]
• Introductions
  • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
    • Lead engineering for years on [[Pressforward]]
    • tool making experience as it interacts with the indyweb
    • current project: how we link note tools together. personally using [[eleventy]] based [[context.center]]
  • [[Flancian]]
    • welcome [[David]]!
    • SRE by profession here, knowledge commons/graphs tinkerer by hobby :)
    • [[agora]] ~ https://anagora.org pull is my main project in this space
  • [[Michael Grossman]]
    • designer - editor - archivist - activist
    • interested in [[information meritocracy]]
    • working on a platform named [[factor]]
    • hanging out in [[ogm]] for a while
    • https://factr.com
    • https://collaborative.tech
    • worked in magazines previously
      • maybe the [[20th century]] was the [[magazine century]] — there weren’t many before then, and it looks like there won’t be many after it
  • [[David Pickrell]]
    • itinerant "software salesman" :)
    • focused on helping people solve problems with software
    • one pitch for the group: son-in-law works on book.io which is a publishing environment that tries to empower authors
      • unique covers for each of the books (NFT space, in the cardano chain)
      • they release unique digital books at 20-30 USD a piece
      • moving to do audio
    • long time [[brain]] user
• What’s on people’s minds?
  • [[Michael Grossman]] curious to ask David about book.io — there are public domain works with many covers, how does that work?
    • artists working with GenAI
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] is book.io a scarcity play or a publisher which is trying to be useful to creators?
    • it tries to be the second
    • targets mostly self-publishing authors currently
    • every time a book gets resold, the author gets a percentage
  • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
    • write professionally, would like to use editors more, and would not like to use them for free.
    • would like to use such a platform to give participating editors a cut of produced works.
  • [[Chris Aldrich]]
    • reviewed some books in book.io
      • there is no translator information for translations of public domain books, e.g. [[anna karenina]]
• Presentation on the Agora?
  • 20th of September — the date is set! :D
• Fediverse and Agora integration in the works
  • note taking in the fediverse: exploring this space
  • [[AZS]] don’t know anything in this space.
    • obsidian can push to the agora, then the agora can provide activitypub services
  • [[Chris Aldrich]] there is potential for UI innovation in this space, something beyond streams
  • wikilinks everywhere :D
• [[does chatgpt obsolete notetaking]]
  • [[AZS]] typical AI-disruption-take.
    • These are tools for thinking and not just for ingestion.
    • our computers/mobile phones already turn us into cyborgs; AI just adds another layer to this
    • human intervention is what gives these things/outputs a value
  • [[CA]] note taking is a ratchet
    • "chat-gpt, build me something like the ethereum network to distribute books"
      • we’re not anywhere near there yet.
      • "what is the next thing", in the sense of Einstein in 1904, is not something that this level of AI can solve.
    • [[JM]] unclear on whether LLMs can only regurgigate known things or can actually improve on them — compare with e.g. alphago coming up with novel moves
  • [[Michael Grossman]] podcast: https://a16z.simplecast.com/episodes/a-true-second-brain-xrODaBD2
    • on [[Nat Eliason]]
    • being able to take notes over years and put them into a model which you can then query/search
    • a certain type of note taking will be much more useful than in the old days
    • surfacing the note that somebody you trust has shared with you is what’s golden
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] when Google came out, we outsourced our memories to Google
    • proponent of humans-in-the-loop
    • [[AZS]] [[technology is a tool, not an outcome]]
  • [[David Pickrell]] recording/transcription services you can add to meetings.
    • using [[ChatGPT]] can help get a sense of material but might not help actually learn that material
    • [[JM]] [[story threads]]
  • [[AZS]] wikipedia is essentially the biggest collection of knowledge, yet people also get degrees
• chat / link dump
  • https://medium.com/intelliboosters/is-tiago-fortes-build-a-second-brain-still-relevant-in-the-age-of-chatgpt-b7a7c5e8637c
  • https://youtu.be/UvYcunuF3Eo?si=_rabLEL9qXVcg1sB
  • https://pressforward.org/

[[2023-08-30]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Chris Aldrich]], [[Flancian]], [[Samuel Klein]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Michael Grossman]]
• Check ins

  • [[Chris Aldrich]]

    • Took the full July off and did a family cruise to Alaska :)
    • Not as rainy as expected, gorgeous scenery
    • Q: did you keep a journal/notebook?
    • A: did, but haven’t done anything with it yet

  • [[Jerry Michalski]] One question that came up in a recent conversation: now that AI is around, do we need to still bother to take notes/curate links? :)

    • Yes :D
    • [[Chris Aldrich]] AI as it is now is interesting but it lacks:
      • a [[compass]].
      • a [[ratchet]].
        • it can aggregate/conglomerate but it won’t choose a solution or direction for you.

  • [[Flancian]]

    • Read [[Engelbart]] over the summer and it was very interested in the context of GenAI developments/this conversation
      • https://social.coop/@flancian/110720124777315271 pull
      • Augmenting Human Intellect: A Conceptual Framework By Douglas C. Engelbart October 1962
        • https://via.hypothes.is/https://dougengelbart.org/content/view/138 (Copy with Hypothesis annotations)

  • [[Samuel Klein]]

    • [[e. e. kim]]]
    • on the potential of [[marginalia]] and [[inter-linealia]] (?)
    • Purple numbers: https://eekim.com/software/purple/purple.html
    • and the use of color maybe?
      • culturally dependent
      • #JM uses purple for opinions and yellow to call attention to things

• Topics

[[2023-08-16]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Flancian]], [[V]], [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]], [[Michael Grossman]]
• Check ins
  • Welcome [[V]]!
    • [[V]] loves federated systems, has been building those since the 2000s/2010s
      • Neighbours with Jerry!
  • [[Michael Grossman]]
    • Doing well
    • Thoughts on living on confiscated land
  • [[Jerry Michalski]]
    • On the concept of [[wokeness]] as it’s weaponized by the right
    • Worried about how the concept of [[woke]] is maybe seen as toxic also by some progressives now?
    • On the "anti-reclaiming" of terms
  • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
    • On providing sources and timelines relevant to things
    • As a way to reverse [[context collapse]] and how it relates to the goals of the fellowship
  • [[Flancian]]
    • On the [[Agora]] as a prototype for "simply" federating ideas and definitions
    • And precisely to push back against concept collapse and understand our points of contact and also of divergence
  • [[V]]
    • This conversation reminds me of [[dialectics]]
    • The Agora can be seen as a tool to enable dialectics (thesis antithesis synthesis) / help communities go through this process
  • [[Jerry Michalski]]
    • [[argumentation theory]] maybe generalizes this
    • other tools in the [[debate]] space
  • [[Flancian]] on agreeing on definitions and more generally on procedures to resolve definitions
    • Maybe on defining a [[default commons]] as an advantage for a group that tries this
  • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
    • The libertarian concept of finding an answer is what we get by default nowadays: different websites compete to provide the "best answer"
    • But there is more than one answer to each problem based on context/expected use
    • [[V]] on contextual ranking in the Agora: ranking results based on relevance for your social context
    • Maybe thinking of [[positive opt-in community filter bubbles]]
  • [[Michael Grossman]]
    • On delegating filtering to friends/communities as it relates to [[liquid democracy]]
    • On [[owning your social graph]]
• on [[liquid democracy]] :)
  • https://bra.in/9jYawA
  • https://anagora.org/liquid-democracy pull
  • [[colorado]] experiment
  • on its potential side effects:
    • [[depolarization]]
    • promoting higher dimensionality thinking
    • promoting thinking about interesting problems in categories
    • promoting thinking about relative expertise of individuals
• [[Jerry Michalski]]
  • on [[yelling louder]] "forcing the stack"
  • on [[darvo]]
    • [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]]
      • ah, this is just fascist politicking as defined in stuff like https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/umberto-eco-ur-fascism
      • [[small government]] usually means withdrawing support from causes
• [[Jerry Michalski]] on [[five minute universities]]
  • lightning classes: 5 minutes for presenting, 5 minutes for questions, follow up conversation happens later
  • video on [[the great transformation]]
  • Jerry Michalski says: https://bra.in/2qa2BE
  • Interested in making timelines with 11ty? [[Aram Zucker-Scharff]] is looking for testers of https://github.com/AramZS/timelinety based on https://web3isgoinggreat.com/

[[2023-08-09]]

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[Flancian]], [[Peter Kaminski]], [[Michael Grossman]]
• [[climate change]]
  • https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2023/08/02/southamerica-record-winter-heat-argentina-chile/
  • [[global citizenship]]
    • prepare now to give climate refugees: an identity, a nationality, internet connection, internet services
    • what does citizenship mean now and in the future?
    • snow crash vs star trek
    • cory doctorow’s [[walkaway]]
      • also [[catalog of missing devices]]
    • on modelling solutions to big problems
    • https://blogs.worldbank.org/dev4peace/how-many-years-do-refugees-stay-exile
      • on averages
        • [[The End of Average]]: How We Succeed in a World That Values Sameness (2016)
        • on (jet) fighter seats
        • on the old belief that people used to live very little
    • on cancers :(
      • When did people start understanding what cancer was?
        • https://chat.openai.com/share/3d3e3f93-9449-420a-914f-bc27c4912a49

          In the late 1850’s, "Virchow was the first to correctly link the origin of cancers from otherwise normal cells, believing that cancer is caused by severe irritation in the tissues (the ‘chronic irritation theory’). Not all of his work was correct, however. He also proposed that cancer spreads around the body by the spread of the irritation in liquid form."

        • https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5665122/)
• [[flancian]] progress on https://link.agor.ai — ready for your perusal and/or joining :)
• how do we take the outputs of all the calls we’re in and do more with them?
  • [[peter kaminski]] working on some automation for downloading e.g. zoom call logs
  • Vincent (who?) is working in this space as well
  • [[dogsheep]] and tools to help users get out of [[walled gardens]]
• [[peter kaminski]] some links to share and a question :)
• Stowe Boyd has gotten deep into [[Obsidian]]: https://medium.com/workings/more-on-tufte-style-sidenotes-db61d3d8dce0

| | Openness | How well does it play with other tools? How interoperable and customisable is it? | F/OSS. Use open standards. Has an API. Import/Export Allow 3rd party plugins. Available on all OSs, platforms. Supports structured data | | Note-making | How good is it as a note-making tool? | Good outliner (easy indent/outdent, reorder, fold/zoom…) Atomic note structure, block references. Zettlekasten support. | | Writing/Publishing | How good is it as a writing & publishing tool? | WYSIWYG, zen writing environment/design, editing feature set, seamless publishing system to Web, Social. | | Idea discovery | Does it help users organise and (re)discover relevant notes? | Backlinks, Good search, AI-driven content discovery | | User-friendliness | How easy is it to start benefiting from it, off the shelf? | New user can get started and get benefits without taking courses, reading 3 books and 23 blog posts, or installing a dozen plugins | | Power | How powerful, adaptable & configurable is it? | Lots of features, highly customisable, many plug-ins, queryable knowledge, etc. | | Multiplayer | Allows teamwork | Group-based collaboration: groups, permissions, workflows, version control, commenting, moderation… | | Help | Is it easy to find high-quality documentation and answers to common questions? | Well-organised onboarding, documentation & FAQ system. | | Community | Is there a supportive community around the tool | Helpful community, active 3rd party developers, etc. | | Cost | How expensive is the tool | Free, or at least a v. useful free version in a freemium model | | Data sovereignty | Who owns your data? | Your files on your PC. | 20:35 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:BlueSky protocol 20:35 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:oops wrong paste Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://kolektiva.social/about

20:36 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says: https://blueskyweb.xyz/blog/10-18-2022-the-at-protocol

20:37 me says: ctzn.one — now down probably 20:37 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:Paul Frazee? 20:38 me says:yes: http://anagora.org/pfrazee pull

20:39 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://paulfrazee.medium.com/back-to-basics-what-is-the-point-of-decentralization-a495123a1fd7

Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://context.center/topics/cryptocurrency/#activity-pub

20:41 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:small note: I’m Twitter user # 509 Jerry Michalski says:when it was just an SMS service 😃 20:43 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:😃 20:43 me says:Pleroma me says:Lemmy me says:Misskey? 20:44 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://github.com/misskey-dev/misskey

Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://twitter.com/Chronotope/status/1587511147137486848 pull

20:45 me says:some interesting questions in this space: me says:1. what is the biggest overall activitypub instance? me says:2. what is the biggest which isn’t mastodon based? 20:46 Chris Aldrich Chris Aldrich says:I think mastodon.social is the largest instance 20:46 me says:3. how large could a non-mastodon instance feasibly scale up to be currently? 20:46 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:advertising is the colonizing force of capitalism in internet spaces 20:47 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:Like cohost.org is sort of pushing in that direction as well Aram Zucker-Scharff says: https://pinboard.in/ also sort of monetizes that way 20:48 me says: https://social.coop

20:48 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:guilds —> unions Jerry Michalski says:mutual aid —> cooperatives 20:50 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:? https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4467218-travelling-brothers?from_search=true&from_srp=true&qid=wM2PoCC5zD&rank=12 ? 20:51 me says:anti disintermediation me says:crypto is a convoluted way to define a trust root (in most applications, it seems) me says:"what are the platforms and protocols that we will take for granted 100 years from now" me says:counter anti disintermediation 😉 me says:citation needed 😉 20:54 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:full title: Travelling Brothers: The Six Centuries’ Road from Craft Fellowship to Trade Unionism (1979) Jerry Michalski says:A Collective Bargain: Unions, Organizing, and the Fight for Democracy (2020) ? 20:55 me says: flancia.org/mine/flanbook is a bit about this — coopting the machinery of capitalism for the purpose of advancing the revolution 20:56 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:oooo! 20:56 me says:commons me says:enclosure of the commons == another manifestation of capitalist colonization 20:57 Jerry Michalski Jerry Michalski says:my notes from this call: https://bra.in/3pWnJo

20:58 Aram Zucker-Scharff Aram Zucker-Scharff says:Ah i was thinking of Fight Like Hell by Kim Kelly Aram Zucker-Scharff says:I’ll read that! :walking:

2022-06-24

Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]] [[Chris Aldrich]] [[flancian]]

Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9aRBtTqLjw

Notes

• Discussion of [[go links]]
  • Demo in anagora.org :)
  • [[go/fotl/chat]] and [[go/fellowship of the link/chat]] both now work
• Time?
  • 11am Pacific on Fridays?
    • Could conflict with date nights in Europe :)
  • [[11am Pacific on Thursdays]]?
    • Let’s try this!
• [[shared resources]]
  • [[Chris Aldrich]] putting up something in the site
    • add a go link :)
  • here’s what we’re doing, here’s where we’re going, here is how to join
  • let’s use [[chat]] for coordinating
• what’s a high leverage topic for the three of us?
  • [[Chris Aldrich]] what’s pareto optimal/the 20% we could tackle first?
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] has been working on a [[shared vision]]
  • [[flancian]] [[2025]]
• [[Jerry Michalski]]
  • how to build a "webring" for meetings, documents about projects
  • [[obsidian]] with [[excalidraw]] done by a friend
    • diagrams.net is also good
  • [[open global mind]] ~ [[ogm]]
    • [[flotilla]] -> [[federation]]
    • what do you see from the top of your mast?
    • [[multi plane camera]]
    • [[map of the future]] ~ [[mosaic]]
  • [[flancian]] [[agora]] plus iframes for mvp of the above
  • [[Chris Aldrich]] standard based, using each item as a block
    • [[oembed]]?
    • tools tends to target one tool only, lots of duplication
    • [[activitypub]]
      • [[Chris Aldrich]] over designed it, over specified it, few people understand it completely
        • [[aaron parecki]]
      • [[mastodon]] as the de facto standard rather than ActivityPub itself
        • we can bridge to mastodon or pleroma, do not need to reimplement it
      • what about [[rss]]?
        • [[Jerry Michalski]] does this not break transclusion?
        • How can we prevent the unproductive RSS/Atom wars of the early blogosphere?
    • [[Jerry Michalski]] [[least common denominator]]
      • problem or potential?
      • [[tbl]] simplified [[sgml]] and made it break gracefully
      • [[resiliency]]
    • [[cory doctorow]] on the [[tragedy of the commons]]
      • [[modus operandi]] and [[throughput]] amazing
      • [[Chris Aldrich]]: cory has a [[commonplace book]] essentially, see https://pluralistic.net/2021/01/13/two-decades/
      • [[flancian]]
        • [[adversarial interoperability]] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/10/adversarial-interoperability
        • [[catalog of missing devices]]
• from chat unprocesssed
  • Jerry Michalski dice:transclusion
  • Chris Aldrich dice:How to create a Read Fork Write Merge Web?

2022-06-17

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[metasj]], [[Mathew Lowry]], [[flancian]]
• (joined late) (chat history)
  • https://socialhub.activitypub.rocks/t/semmy-social-knowledge-fabrics/2248
  • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plYobK-VufM
  • https://docs.ipfs.io/how-to/pin-files/
  • https://bra.in/3vPgD9
• [[Jerry Michalski]] and [[mathew]] on [[medium]]
• #push [[Mathew Lowry’s chapter]] for [[pkg book]]
  • https://mathewlowry.medium.com/from-personal-to-social-knowledge-graphs-a-vision-statement-draft-fc86ef4f7022
  • outsourcing commenting to [[hypothesis]]
  • [[web annotation standard]]
  • [[activitypub]]
  • [[activitypub]] to [[web annotation standard]] bridge?
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] [[nuggets]] in the [[big fungus]]
  • [[Mathew Lowry]] [[nuggets]] as cross-linked executive summaries
• [[fediverse]]
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] what’s the simplest possible example to get going on comments and annotations on the fediverse?
  • what would be the mvp?
    • [[mastodon]] server?
    • [[mattermost]] channel
    • how to [[interlink]]?
• [[metasj]]
  • challenge: take a [[global commons]] that you care aobut, and scope out its potential full extent
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] take a [[pattern language]] that already exist
    • (lists three)
      • [[liberating structures]]
        • https://www.liberatingstructures.com/1-1-2-4-all/
      • Peeragogy
      • Wise Democracy Pattern Language
      • chat bots: [[five whys]]
    • …and turn them into [[commons]] shared materials and instrument
    • [[pattern languages]] == [[distilled wisdom]]
    • from patterns to praxis
    • a platform for pattern languages: this was tried on top of [[mediawiki]] [[smw]]
      • [[metasj]] [[wikibase]] >> [[smw]]
    • [[instrumentalize]] > [[instrument]]?
      • Integrate
      • Arborize
      • what’s the verb when mycelium sprouts a mushroom?
      • [[fruiting]]
    • [[metasj]] tried to put [[ward]] and [[alexander]] in contact to discuss agreeing on a platform
    • [[Jerry Michalski]] [[engelbart]] struggled with this
    • a strategy to make everybody facilitating facilitations a better facilitator
    • leads to a global memory artifact
  • [[mathew]] what’s the end goal of this envisioning/scoping exercise?
    • [[metasj]] a couple of measures of scope:
      • proportion of total human societal interaction affected in a given year
      • [[Jerry Michalski]] (ways of measuring global impact)
      • empowering people
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] [[applause in sign language]]
    • used in [[occupy movement]]
    • other gestures used: disagree, blocking, speak louder
    • [[flancian]] related: [[free, fair and alive]] [[anarchist cybernetics]]
    • [[reading club]] on [[dawn of everything]] in [[ogm]]
      • -> [[node club]]
  • [[Mathew Lowry]]
    • tools to better capture knowledge produced from conferences/workshops and share it with the world
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] [[idea commons]]
    • pastors.com is where a lot of evangelical preachers get what they say on Sundays (!)
    • open source sermon central
  • [[flancian]]
    • pattern repository, people router
    • alternatives
  • [[flancian]]
    • [[counter anti disintermediation]] leading back to distributed systems and liquid democracy
      • maybe could yield a metric w.r.t. degree of distrubution of structures of power
    • [[complementary cognitive artifacts]]
      • maybe yields a metric w.r.t. resiliency to losing
    • composed effects of higher efficiency in cooperation, [[coordination problem]]
  • chat
    • unschooling, regenerative agriculture, traffic calming…
    • ice:bootstrapping: ways to make people vectors for a new approach
    • patterning: process for helping people abstract their work to its full potential extent
    • which will usually overlap w/ the full-extent of other existing/smaller patterns
    • matchmaking: people who could work on the same vectors
    • https://www.clearerthinking.org/
• [[action items]]
  • [[flancian]]
    • upload past recording to youtube
• [[metasj]] and [[flancian]] 1:1
  • [[building bridges]], [[wormholes]]
  • [[workshops]] and [[facilitating]] of world building
  • [[future casting]] -> [[incepting]]
  • [[wikimedia]] + [[web annotations]]
    • [[diego de la hera]]
    • there is an extension that makes them worked well together
    • how does the community moderate annotations?
    • [[flancian]] default: the site sets the default ranking function for annotations. and perhaps some annotations are community owned, wiki like?

2022-06-09

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[diego de la hera]], [[flancian]], [[Chris Aldrich]]
• Inviting others
  • [[flancian]] been inviting people already, but would be like to use some kind of policy?
  • [[Jerry Michalski]] suggest to use the Mattermost to coordinate; use this space to consider together our goals and attract others like this
    • [[mattermost]] https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/channels/ogm-fellowship-of-the-link
  • let’s use the list of people in the [[doc]] https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RAourQe_MKh0uWomLsS_V5ea3zm30g8paE49X56jIHs/edit
    • to brainstorm on who to invite if you want to discuss a priori
  • [[flancian]] invited Dan because of his interested in the space + his experience with web standards
• [[Jerry Michalski]]
  • [[web]] https://www.fellowshipofthelink.org/
  • who wants admin? :)
    • 0@flancia.org
    • delahera@gmail.com
    • christopherjaldrich@gmail.com
  • we could also start groups in social networks, e.g. linkedin
    • [[flancian]] [[mastodon]]?
    • got stuck in [[choosing an instance]]
      • [[diego de la hera]] mastodon.social could be seen as the default
      • (instance delegation could be interesting, web of trust like)
      • http://www.unmung.com/mastoview is a tool for helping to choose Mastondon instances
    • [[diego de la hera]] lack of defaults as a hindrance to adoption here, in the indieweb as well
    • [[Jerry Michalski]] [[barry schwartz]] https://bra.in/4jXVP2
      • [[the tyranny of choice]]
      • [[schelling point]]
    • [[Chris Aldrich]] with more choice you usually get increasing complexity
      • you are given so much choice it’s almost too much (in the indieweb)
      • [[Jerry Michalski]] templates, walkthroughs add a lot of value
      • [[Chris Aldrich]] you need either a lot of time or people motivated because they’re building business
      • [[peter kaminski]] introduced [[Jerry Michalski]] to [[obsidian]]
      • on straightforward vs powerful tools
      • [[diego de la hera]] on the power of forks
        • e.g. [[Chris Aldrich]]‘s setup is something we could fork to bootstrap a new user’s environment
        • people have copy/pasted Chris’s website already, full pages at a time :)
    • [[flancian]] [[map of the fediverse]]
• longer term goals / brainstorming / dream sharing
  • [[Jerry Michalski]]
    • series of projects revolving around these issues
      • [[open global mind]], started 2y ago
        • part of a [[flotilla]] with other organizations
        • 8am pacific, standing call for [[ogm]]
      • [[rel8]]
        • why is it so hard to share, integrate notes — build arguments?
          • -> [[argument mapping]]?
          • [[argumentation theory]]
          • [[stephen toulmin]] -> [[toulmin model of argument]]
        • [[the big fungus]] == https://thebigfungus.org
        • interested in the scaffolding, infrastructure to share ideas
      • [[think camp]] funds startups in this space
        • "profitable businesses that feed the [[commons]]"
    • read an interesting article today, conservative point of view with good arguments even though some disagreeable premises
      • how do we put this article up to scrutiny and learn from it together?
        • -> [[web annotations]]?
        • [[gyuri lajos]]
          • [[Jerry Michalski]] let’s have a group sync with Gyuri?
          • [[Chris Aldrich]] trails are related to [[vannevar bush]]‘s
    • wishlist for [[fotl]]: how do these parts fit together?
      • how do we make it so that our notes provide maximum utility, spread through the big fungus
  • [[Chris Aldrich]] would like to focus on how to
    • make it all work together
    • make the systems be easy to use
    • make something that is as simple to understand as facebook?
    • I’d like to see [[commonplace books]] that can "talk" to each other.
    • "the [[stream]] flows by too fast"
      • turning streams into gardens
      • [[neil]] from the Agora has great writing on streams vs gardens, how they relate to each other - https://doubleloop.net/
• [[john borthwick]] at [[betaworks]] has funding for small projects [[think camp]]
• Watch parties
  • [[connection series]]
    • watch these, take notes/diagrams and share/interop
    • -> [[books, paintings, movies, ideas that shaped many people’s lives]]
      • https://bra.in/5pxdW6
  • [[dan whaley]] youtube annotations are a side project / hobby
    • [[docdrop]] https://docdrop.org/
• [[diego de la hera]]
  • web annotations were mentioned; thought of two connections
    • [[peter hagen]] -> [[lindylearn]] https://lindylearn.io/ and specifically https://annotations.lindylearn.io/new/
      • social platform where you would find what other people are annotating and join the conversation
      • provides a discovery layer for what others are reading and thinking about
    • [[chrome]] is also tackling annotations
    • [[worldbrain]], [[memex]]?
    • it seems like here we want to work more on the level of how to connect different annotation tools at a (federated?) layer
      • perhaps what we need is an integration device at this layer, e.g. [[wikilinks]]
• Timing
• After the event, [[Mathew Lowry]]: https://doc.anagora.org/Kz1qvywQRjq9nZ-ElXlHUg?view pull

Matterbridge site for group communication: https://chat.collectivesensecommons.org/agora/tips

https://collectivesensecommons.org/

Mathew Lowry mentioned [[Mysilio]]

• https://github.com/mysilio-co
• (https://mysilio.com/) a "thinking tool"/platform that uses [[Solid]] - funded by [[Foundation for the Web]]; has a social media tool and a digital garden

[[David McRaney]] (twitter) has several books:

• [[How Minds Change]] #books/wanttoread/2
• [[You’re Not So Smart]] #books/wanttoread/2
• [[You are Now Less Dumb]]

2022-06-02

• Attending: [[Jerry Michalski]], [[diego de la hera]], [[flancian]], [[Chris Aldrich]]
• Our personal history
  • Diego en Córdoba
  • Jerry Michalski pasos por sudamérica, ahora en Portland
  • Eduardo de Buenos Aires, ahora en Suiza
• Relationships locally and globally
• Jerry: [[open global mind]] meeting just before
  • Send email to sociate@gmail.com to sign up :)
• ([[Chris Aldrich]] joined, introductions)
  • [[Jerry Michalski]]
    • [[the brain]]
    • [[chris]] any shares in the company?
    • not anymore
    • do you have backups?
    • occasionally :) but the format is a big bag of [[json]] objects, not bery interoperable
      • wishlist: [[open global mind]] platform instead
  • [[diego de la hera]]
    • hypothes.is user, contributor as the maintainer of the unofficial extension for firefox; working with [[wikimedia foundation]]
    • met Chris through hypothes.is
  • [[Chris Aldrich]]
    • background: biomedical and electrical engineer, been on the web since the early 90s
    • [[indieweb]] / https://indieweb.org
    • [[open web backup]], strong belief in owning your own domain, your own data, your own identity
    • done work on genetics, but germane: spent a lot of time in the [[entertainment industry]] as it overlaps with the open web
    • massive amount of data
    • history, culture as intertwined with knowledge tools
    • current focus on wikis and note taking tools
• [[Jerry Michalski]] wishful thinking for a design in this space
  • it should allow all users to view data through their chosen tools
  • sometimes you change tools as you shift what you need to do (they are good at different modes of thinking)
  • [[planes]]
    • [[multi plane camera]], [[disney history]]
      • similar to layers in photoshop/gimp
    • bought https://www.playnz.dev
  • [[kumu]] == https://kumu.io
    • is it open source?
  • [[jupyter notebooks]] are an inspiration
  • https://thebigfungus.org
    • [[leaf cutting ants]]
    • ([[diego de la hera]] worked with them)
    • [[symbiotic relationship]] with the fungus
  • [[diego de la hera]] we mentioned a diversity of tools here:
    • closed and open
    • wiki like and otherwise
    • …but as long as these platforms provide this data in a documented way, do we need a central tool? wouldn’t collaboration emerge even without a central tool?
    • [[jerry]] +1 — the big fungus is a metaphor for the result of this collaboration. But [[playnz]] might be an [[mvp]]/[[demo]] or just an experiment/playground for interoperability.
    • are these tools perhaps already playns?
      • they might be, yes.
    • [[Chris Aldrich]] [[progressive enhancement]] is key
      • https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_enhancement pull
      • how can we take all these tools and build an architecture that supports progressive enhancement?
      • we start with plain text as the base, then you can add things like markdown/html, then you add photos/media
    • [[flancian]] problems and opportunities:
      • exploring hub architecture vs full graph integration
      • lossiness as you interop through tools, playns
      • complexity of integrations
        • [[Chris Aldrich]] pairwise compatibility is a nightmare
    • [[translation as a service]]
      • [[pandoc]]
      • [[Chris Aldrich]] [[paas]] == [[pandoc as a service]]
    • [[markdown as lingua franca]]
  • [[Jerry Michalski]]
    • [[mapping tools for thinking]] in [[jerry’s brain]]
    • also an amazing list of people
    • book: [[the extended mind]]
  • interest in the [[crystallization]] of what we know together
    • contributing to the same lists -> [[collective action]]
    • [[diego de la hera]] the relationship between these efforts and [[wikimedia]] projects
      • [[intermingle]] / preservation of voices
      • [[ward cunningham]]! [[fedwiki]]
      • Ward’s calls
    • [[Chris Aldrich]] we should invite [[mark bernstein]], [[tinderbox]]
• [[fellowship of the link]] as it relates to other projects
• [[diego de la hera]] isn’t the web as a whole what we need? :)
  • [[html is the lingua franca of our time]]
  • [[web mentions]]
    • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webmention pull
    • https://brid.gy/
    • [[indieweb]] has examples of this working
      • [[acid test]] of interoperability
      • [[swat0]] https://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/SWAT0
    • search engine for tagged/linked trusted content
      • http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commonplace_book pull
      • intimacy gradient
    • [[delicious]]
      • #c19 == [[19th century]]
    • [[technorati]]
• [[lists]] we could assemble:
  • people in this space
    • the above
    • [[tantek Çelik]]
    • "how can we build this with as little technology as possible"
  • projects in this space (knowledge tools)
  • recurrent calls in this space
    • https://lu.ma/toolsforthoughtrocks
  • possible [[lingua francas]]
• [[Chris Aldrich]] "The world lost so much because Vannevar Bush didn’t use the word commonplace book in his article As We May Think."
  • how can we take open tools like [[logseq]], or semi-open like [[obsidian]], and create a reusable store
  • [[blot]] == https://blot.im
  • [[granary]] == https://granary.io/ for translating between silo formats as well as feed formats [[rss]], [[atom]], [[h-feed]], [[JSONfeed]], etc.
• https://bra.in/3vGWLa
• https://bra.in/7v2NRe